Cook Island Trust for Offshore Asset Protection With Puai Wichman

In this podcast, Blake interviews Puai Wichman, the founder and CEO of Ora Partners. They discuss the benefits of using the Cook Islands as a jurisdiction for asset protection trusts and the advantages of Ora as a trust company.

Blake:
Puai, thanks for coming on the podcast. I’m here today with Puai Wichman, who’s the founder and CEO of Ora Partners. Great to have you on the show.

Puai:
Glad to be here.

Blake:
So can you start by telling a little bit about your background?

Puai:
Well, I’ve got a legal background, I graduated with a law degree out of Auckland University in New Zealand. I worked for a law firm there until I was sent over to the Cook Islands to set up a satellite office for that law firm.

Blake:
So you start in the Cook Islands, you went to law school, and they sent you back to the Cook Islands.

Puai:
Correct, correct. And by the way, it wasn’t my plan to come back to the Cook Islands so soon after, you know, just graduating and being a young attorney, I had envisaged working in the law firm for at least 10 years before I came back here. But that wasn’t the plan and that’s certainly not the way it worked out. So I ended up back here, did one year as an attorney on the island, working extremely long hours, until I was headhunted by one of the trust companies. That in 1993.

Blake:
Very good. And then you eventually went on to start your own trust company here.

Puai:
Yes, in the year 2000. And I ventured out my own and I’ve been doing my own thing ever since.

Blake:
For over 20 years now?

Puai:
Yea, 20 years

Blake:
Wonderful. So, if someone’s looking to create an asset protection trust, what are the benefits of using the Cook Islands as a jurisdiction?

Puai:
Well, the Cook Islands was the pioneering jurisdiction for enacting what we now commonly call asset protection trusts. It wasn’t something common back in the 1980s. So the Cook Islands was the first jurisdiction in the world to give something quite specific in protecting an individual’s wealth, through using a trust. So that’s the starting point. And that piece of legislation that has been copied, the world over by other jurisdictions, and by some of the states in the US.

Blake:
Yep

Puai:
So you know, that validates the ingenuity and the strength of that piece of legislation. So, from putting that legislation together, what’s transpired over that period of time is experience. And the other important thing, I think, for the clients is legal prisoners, we have case law that validates the legislation. So it’s fine to have the legislation. But you’ve got to have the people who can influence that motion work within the framework, but you’re going to have also the judicial backing of that legislation. So, we’ve got those two pillars and then we have legislation. We’ve got professionals who have been working in this industry for over 30 years, we have the experience, we know of various scenarios, being involved in the asset protection business. And then we’ve got a judiciary that recognizes our trust laws.

Blake:
And there’s no higher form of compliment than copying and other nations have tried to copy the laws. But it’s not just about the laws. As you mentioned, simply having the laws it’s very easy to do, someone can copy the laws, it’s having the backing, the judicial system, the mindset of a country that supports that. One factor that I would say, that’s also in benefit of using the Cook Islands as opposed to another jurisdiction, is its distance from the United States. It deters people from wanting to come all the way from the United States. It’s a beautiful country here in the Cook Islands. But in order to get here, it took me about 24 hours of flight time. If you can put that 24 hour flight, probably two days total travel time between a potential creditor and your assets, that’s going to deter some people. Maybe someday Elon Musk will colonize Mars, we can start a Mars trust company. But for now, the Cook Islands is going to serve as the best.

Puai:
The distance is a real barrier, and the lack of familiarity with the Cook Islands. I mean the first step that any creditor, attorney has to think about is where is the Cook Islands? That’s the first step.

Blake:
Attorneys think it’s in the Caribbean. Most people think it’s in the Caribbean.

Puai:
And then of course, they have to research the local requirements in the country. And now one important thing that I always say to clients in the US is if there’s a creditor attorney wanting to come and retain an attorney here in the Cook Islands, nobody works for you on contingencies.

Blake:
This is very different than America where most, a lot of work is done on a contingency fee.

Puai:
Correct. I mean, you’ve been prepared to put a deposit down of over $100,000 if you’re even thinking about attacking clients, and that’s just the legal, your legal fees. Now, if you go into any action here in the Cook Islands, find the defendants, I’m going to front up to the judge to say, I want my costs covered too. And I want to be secured in terms of that cost. So I’m probably gonna ask for another $100,000 before anything gets going. So there’s a lot of deterrence in place.

Blake:
And then on top of that, there’s also the standard of proof, which is much higher, you know, the Cook Islands.

Puai:
Much higher.

Blake:
You have to prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt, which is much more of a standard than a simple preponderance of the evidence, which is required in the United States.

Puai:
Absolutely. I mean, that’s the criminal standard.

Blake:
Exactly. That’s reserved for the criminal standards in the United States.

Puai:
And so what we did was we brought it into the realm of trust litigation. I thought, again, it’s so ingenious, they’re making it so difficult for anybody to attack a Cook Islands trust.

Blake:
And it’s the reason that so many trusts continue to be registered in the Cook Islands. So, there are a handful of trust companies in the Cook Islands, Ora is one of the ones that I use the most. But what would you say are the advantages of using Ora?

Puai:
You know, having been in the business for a very long time, I think we like to distinguish ourselves from our competitors on the basis that we stand and deliver. What I mean by that is, we’ll be with you in the good times, but when the bad times come, we’re still going to be there with you. And what we found that some of the other trustees, not just in the Cook Islands, but everywhere else is when the bad times come, they start running for the hills. And you know, so often I get calls from other trust companies “Can you take this client? Can you take this client?” And after a while, I said, now hang on a minute. They’ve been paying you all these fees all these years.

Blake:
Right.

Puai:
And then suddenly, someone is knocking at the door and there’s this thunderstorm developing, who do you call? You call Puai Wichman. Because you know he’s gonna stand and look out for their client. So, that’s how we distinguish ourselves, we’re here in the good, and definitely in the bad.

Blake:
On top of that, I found very good customer service. I’ve never heard a single complaint from any client that I’ve sent your away.

Puai:
That’s good.

Blake:
And I’d certainly share with you if that ever did happen. But hopefully that won’t ever happen.

Blake:
So, can you tell me a time when a client benefited from using your services, maybe a story or an example?

Puai:
Well, I think I’ve just touched on an area where a client who had been with his trustee for nearly 20 years, and then there was litigation on the horizon. And then suddenly, this client found himself without a trustee for an unwilling trustee. So for me, that really highlighted how important our services were. But it’s also really important for us to make sure that we look after the people that have trust and faith in us. I mean, this is more than just a business. This is about protecting people’s livelihoods. I have to constantly remind our staffers that what you’re doing here is actually really, really important for people’s livelihoods. And it’s not just pieces of paper. So, to answer your question, I think we’ve made a huge difference in people’s lives over many, many years. You know, we’ve given them a peace of mind, we’ve made the difficult situations a lot easier to handle. You know, and that’s what we are, problem solvers.

Blake:
I came across a quote recently that I like, “Freedom does not exist without security of assets.” And most of our clients are Americans. And freedom is very important to us. And you really are the gateway to that. Especially in America, where lawsuits have become so outrageous and so easy to bring lawsuits and jurors and run away with some incredible verdicts. Giving our clients the ability to protect their assets or also give them some leverage in negotiating a settlement by being able to say, “Hey, if you want to try to get money, you’re gonna go to the Cook Islands, you’re probably gonna have pretty much no chance of succeeding there, take our settlement offer, and we can resolve this much, much quicker.”

Puai:
And I highlight the very small chance of it.

Blake:
Yes, extremely small. We can’t say zero, but just about as close to zero as you can get. And I understand your company’s never had the order to pay out to a creditor.

Blake:
So, beyond simply serving as a trustee for a Cook Islands trust, what other services does Ora provide, and maybe one of the services it may be providing in the future.

Puai
I mean, this is an interesting question for us. We see ourselves as being an innovative trustee company. We are looking constantly into the future. What does the future set for wealth preservation, asset protection, how can we get our clients security in the future in a different world. So, we’re definitely moving into being able to protect crypto assets, NFT’s, and all those similar type, digital assets. Of course, it’s a new area, not just for us, but for some of our clients, and for the attorneys, those who are advising the growing number of wealthy individuals who see an opportunity in the digital world. So, we want to cater to that market. We’re still in the early days, and we are developing a particular platform that we believe will assist trustees, attorneys, wealth managers, and even the ultimate clients to deal with these different bodies, new assets, but still retain that underlying element of protection, and security, and privacy.

Blake:
And this may kind of fall into my last question for you here today, which is, can you tell me a little bit about your next gen trust?

Puai:
Yes, it’s a project we’ve been working on for the last three years. Still in the early development stages. In fact, it’s still really at the early conceptual stages. We’ve got a working model that we’re working with, but it’s catered specifically for the crypto holders, that digital native market that we think is going to become more and more important. It’s still the same things, that we want to be able to set up a trust, in a lot more seamless, easier way than it currently is. You know, when you look at trustee companies, you know we have some really archaic procedures and processes in place. And that’s not necessarily an inability by trustee companies to change, its more the environment that we deal with. A lot of our clients are still very conservative, they still want to have their passport copies, notarized the old fashioned way, and that’s fine, but you know, the world is changing. And I think we’re going to see less and less of that, and we’re going to see more and more of a digital native replacing that type of clientele for us. So, that’s the future. And we want to be able to cater for that. That new, more digital savvy, type client.

Blake:
And it’s really, really great how forward thinking your company is. Puai, I want to thank you very much for your time today. And, you know, thank you for all that you’ve done for my clients over the years. It’s been a pleasure working with you and I certainly look forward to continuing to work with you a lot into the future.

Puai:
Thank you Blake.